effectiveness, that efficiency, we would pursue non-violence. But if the condition shows that non-violence was not effective, we would use other means.
16. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA
KATHRADA: Did you read Gandhi too? Mandela: Oh yes. No, that’s true. No, that’s true.
KATHRADA: So, that’s true?
MANDELA: But, Nehru was really my hero.
KATHRADA:…This is the way it’s worded, page 62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘He felt some pangs at abandoning his Christian beliefs which had fortified his childhood, like St Peter three times denying Christ.’ Now, is it correct wording to say you ‘abandoned your Christian beliefs’?
MANDELA: No, never.
KATHRADA: It would be wrong, isn’t it?
MANDELA:…I say it’s absolutely untrue. I never abandoned my Christian beliefs.
KATHRADA: OK.
MANDELA: And I think it’s proper, you know, it could do a lot of harm.
KATHRADA: Exactly, ja.
MANDELA: Ja, could do a lot of harm.
17. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
STENGEL: What was Ruth First like?
MANDELA: Ruth? Ruth – her death was a tragedy for South Africa because she was amongst the brightest stars in the country, in the proper sense of the word. 20 I…[had] known Ruth from our university days. We were in the same university and she was progressive, and she was not the type of white who was progressive when she was with you in a room, or away from the public. If she met you in one of the corridors of the university or in the street, Ruth will stand and talk to you, very comfortable, in a very relaxed manner and she was brilliant. In any meeting where you sat with Ruth, there was just nothing but brilliance. And…she did not suffer fools, had no patience towards fools and she was energetic, systematic, hard-working and she would tax you on any type of job that you undertook and she would…make the maximum effort and to produce the best result. She was fearless, she could criticise anybody and she rubbed people, you know…in the wrong way at times. She was direct and outspoken. But at the same time she was very broad, just like her husband, Joe [Slovo], very broad. In those days when [they] were young communists, and very radical, they had friends amongst the Liberals and amongst prominent businessmen, and her house was a crossroad of people of different political persuasions. That was a wonderful girl, I loved very much. I loved and respected [her] very much and I was very sorry when I heard from prison that she had passed away.
STENGEL: And their house was, as you say, a kind of centre.
MANDELA: Oh yes.
STENGEL: And would you go there for dinner…?
MANDELA: Oh very often, very often. I had a clash with her…in 1958, I appeared in a trial and…I lost the case, and some women were sent to jail, and she then criticised me in the way I handled the case. It was actually the criticism of somebody who was not conversant with the law. But it was over the telephone and I was hard-pressed because I was dealing, you see, with more than 2,000 women, trying to arrange defence [for] them. The whole day, you know, I’d be busy either actually defending them or arranging people to defend them. And…then I handled one case and I lost it and three women were sent to jail, although, of course we bailed them out. Then she, on the telephone, criticised the manner in which I had handled the case and I told her to go to hell. And then [ laughs ] immediately thereafter I realised, man, you see, this is a lady, and this is a very good comrade. However wrong she was, she believed in what she said. Then, at the end of the day, instead of going home, I went along with Winnie to her place and I found her with one of the lecturers…at university…I just came in, didn’t say anything, just grabbed her, embraced her and kissed her and walked out. Walked away. [ laughs ] Ja, they tried to say sit down and so on – I just walked away. Yes. But I’d made peace. And Joe was saying, ‘I told you Nelson would never have any
16. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA
KATHRADA: Did you read Gandhi too? Mandela: Oh yes. No, that’s true. No, that’s true.
KATHRADA: So, that’s true?
MANDELA: But, Nehru was really my hero.
KATHRADA:…This is the way it’s worded, page 62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘He felt some pangs at abandoning his Christian beliefs which had fortified his childhood, like St Peter three times denying Christ.’ Now, is it correct wording to say you ‘abandoned your Christian beliefs’?
MANDELA: No, never.
KATHRADA: It would be wrong, isn’t it?
MANDELA:…I say it’s absolutely untrue. I never abandoned my Christian beliefs.
KATHRADA: OK.
MANDELA: And I think it’s proper, you know, it could do a lot of harm.
KATHRADA: Exactly, ja.
MANDELA: Ja, could do a lot of harm.
17. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL
STENGEL: What was Ruth First like?
MANDELA: Ruth? Ruth – her death was a tragedy for South Africa because she was amongst the brightest stars in the country, in the proper sense of the word. 20 I…[had] known Ruth from our university days. We were in the same university and she was progressive, and she was not the type of white who was progressive when she was with you in a room, or away from the public. If she met you in one of the corridors of the university or in the street, Ruth will stand and talk to you, very comfortable, in a very relaxed manner and she was brilliant. In any meeting where you sat with Ruth, there was just nothing but brilliance. And…she did not suffer fools, had no patience towards fools and she was energetic, systematic, hard-working and she would tax you on any type of job that you undertook and she would…make the maximum effort and to produce the best result. She was fearless, she could criticise anybody and she rubbed people, you know…in the wrong way at times. She was direct and outspoken. But at the same time she was very broad, just like her husband, Joe [Slovo], very broad. In those days when [they] were young communists, and very radical, they had friends amongst the Liberals and amongst prominent businessmen, and her house was a crossroad of people of different political persuasions. That was a wonderful girl, I loved very much. I loved and respected [her] very much and I was very sorry when I heard from prison that she had passed away.
STENGEL: And their house was, as you say, a kind of centre.
MANDELA: Oh yes.
STENGEL: And would you go there for dinner…?
MANDELA: Oh very often, very often. I had a clash with her…in 1958, I appeared in a trial and…I lost the case, and some women were sent to jail, and she then criticised me in the way I handled the case. It was actually the criticism of somebody who was not conversant with the law. But it was over the telephone and I was hard-pressed because I was dealing, you see, with more than 2,000 women, trying to arrange defence [for] them. The whole day, you know, I’d be busy either actually defending them or arranging people to defend them. And…then I handled one case and I lost it and three women were sent to jail, although, of course we bailed them out. Then she, on the telephone, criticised the manner in which I had handled the case and I told her to go to hell. And then [ laughs ] immediately thereafter I realised, man, you see, this is a lady, and this is a very good comrade. However wrong she was, she believed in what she said. Then, at the end of the day, instead of going home, I went along with Winnie to her place and I found her with one of the lecturers…at university…I just came in, didn’t say anything, just grabbed her, embraced her and kissed her and walked out. Walked away. [ laughs ] Ja, they tried to say sit down and so on – I just walked away. Yes. But I’d made peace. And Joe was saying, ‘I told you Nelson would never have any
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