least when I came out of jail I went to see them…One day Gordon was not going to be available at five o’clock to go and fetch his wife, so he asked me to [do it]. She was…working…a few blocks away from here in Commissioner Street. And I went there, I got hold of her. Now, because she was blind, she put her hand here [ gestures ], on the arm. And then I went out with her. The whites nearly killed me. Now she…was a beautiful woman…to see a black man holding a white lady like that? Oh, they almost killed me. But I can pretend…that I am brave, you know, and [that] I can beat the whole world, you see, so I just ignored them. And got into the car. [Later] when I was underground, I spent a lot of time with them. They were not very far from my hiding place and I used to visit them in the evening.
14. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED ‘KATHY’ KATHRADA ABOUT DR JAMES MOROKA, 15 Who Wanted to Distance Himself from the Nineteen Other Accused, Including Mandela and Kathrada, in the 1952 Defiance Campaign Trial and Appointed his Own Lawyer 16
Kathrada: Ah, then page 61–62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘I went to see Dr Moroka at his house in Thaba Nchu in the Orange Free State. At the outset of our meeting [I] suggested both of these courses of action to him. But he was not interested; he had a number of grievances that he wanted to air. Moroka could be quite haughty,’ etcetera.
MANDELA: Could be ‘quite haughty’?
KATHRADA: Haughty.
MANDELA: No, man…I don’t like the description of Moroka like that.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…In the first place, Moroka was never haughty. And I don’t like, in, a biography like this, you see, to make uncomplimentary remarks.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…I think we should have, we can say, ‘It was a disappointment to see that the leader of the African National Congress should want to disassociate himself from actions and policies which were adopted under his leadership.’…But I don’t want us to be going into the questions of him being haughty and betraying people.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: I think we should avoid that…and…you know, his children, I wrote to them when I was in prison and they wrote back, you know, to say that for the first time a good word has been said about…
KATHRADA: About their father.
MANDELA: Their grandfather.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: You see what we say about leaders, even though we may criticise them, it would be good , you see, to say that to compare him with [Yusuf] Dadoo 17 …[Walter] Sisulu 18 , you know, these are people produced by the movement…who were committed, you know, to the whole culture of collective leadership…Dr Moroka came from another school and he had these limitations, but put it in a dignified way.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…You see criticism must be dignified. We must be factual, we must be realistic, we must be honest, but at the same time, you know, within a certain frame because we are builders …
KATHRADA: Ja, ja.
MANDELA: When you said that a writer from the movement is not just recording, also is a builder, must contribute, you see, to the building of the organisation and the trust, you know, that should be invested in that organisation. I think you’ve said that…
15. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT NON-VIOLENCE
The Chief [Albert Luthuli] was a passionate disciple of Mahatma Gandhi and he believed in non-violence as a Christian and as a principle… 19 Many of us did not…because when you regard it as a principle you mean throughout, whatever the position is, you’ll stick to non-violence…We took up the attitude that we would stick to non-violence only insofar as the conditions permitted that. Once the conditions were against that we would automatically abandon non-violence and use the methods which were dictated by the conditions. That was our approach. Our approach was to empower the organisation to be effective in its leadership. And if the adoption of non-violence gave it that
14. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED ‘KATHY’ KATHRADA ABOUT DR JAMES MOROKA, 15 Who Wanted to Distance Himself from the Nineteen Other Accused, Including Mandela and Kathrada, in the 1952 Defiance Campaign Trial and Appointed his Own Lawyer 16
Kathrada: Ah, then page 61–62 [of Long Walk to Freedom draft]: ‘I went to see Dr Moroka at his house in Thaba Nchu in the Orange Free State. At the outset of our meeting [I] suggested both of these courses of action to him. But he was not interested; he had a number of grievances that he wanted to air. Moroka could be quite haughty,’ etcetera.
MANDELA: Could be ‘quite haughty’?
KATHRADA: Haughty.
MANDELA: No, man…I don’t like the description of Moroka like that.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…In the first place, Moroka was never haughty. And I don’t like, in, a biography like this, you see, to make uncomplimentary remarks.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…I think we should have, we can say, ‘It was a disappointment to see that the leader of the African National Congress should want to disassociate himself from actions and policies which were adopted under his leadership.’…But I don’t want us to be going into the questions of him being haughty and betraying people.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: I think we should avoid that…and…you know, his children, I wrote to them when I was in prison and they wrote back, you know, to say that for the first time a good word has been said about…
KATHRADA: About their father.
MANDELA: Their grandfather.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA: You see what we say about leaders, even though we may criticise them, it would be good , you see, to say that to compare him with [Yusuf] Dadoo 17 …[Walter] Sisulu 18 , you know, these are people produced by the movement…who were committed, you know, to the whole culture of collective leadership…Dr Moroka came from another school and he had these limitations, but put it in a dignified way.
KATHRADA: Aha.
MANDELA:…You see criticism must be dignified. We must be factual, we must be realistic, we must be honest, but at the same time, you know, within a certain frame because we are builders …
KATHRADA: Ja, ja.
MANDELA: When you said that a writer from the movement is not just recording, also is a builder, must contribute, you see, to the building of the organisation and the trust, you know, that should be invested in that organisation. I think you’ve said that…
15. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT NON-VIOLENCE
The Chief [Albert Luthuli] was a passionate disciple of Mahatma Gandhi and he believed in non-violence as a Christian and as a principle… 19 Many of us did not…because when you regard it as a principle you mean throughout, whatever the position is, you’ll stick to non-violence…We took up the attitude that we would stick to non-violence only insofar as the conditions permitted that. Once the conditions were against that we would automatically abandon non-violence and use the methods which were dictated by the conditions. That was our approach. Our approach was to empower the organisation to be effective in its leadership. And if the adoption of non-violence gave it that
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